Ginger's Susan Hayward Message Board: To reach If You Knew Susie by Trish Sharp, click the profile photo at www.facebook.com/susanhaywardclassicfilmstar and you will see the link.

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So many distractions happened, last night, on my birthday that I only got to watch 'one' Susan film that I watched from midnight until 2AM this morning, but I wasn't going to have a birthday without watching one of her films!

(I was having trouble on my facebook account, seeing all the messages sent in. I don't know if it was the lap top..or new way facebook has set up the pages now, but I spent three hrs on there and couldn't get things to come up right. THANK YOU TIM...for just happening to be on at the same time and told me 'how' to get them to all come up.)

ANYWAY...I wanted to talk a bit about "WHERE LOVE HAS GONE". I know it is not one of the 'best' Susan films...but she was great in it and looked beautiful. I remember when this film first came out, it did not open on Hollywood Blvd at one of the big theaters there..but actually opened at a 'big' theater in the Beverly Hills area..at the Wilshire Theater. Right at that time, many 'new' big films were playing there and at the Beverly ]Theater. Some like..ANNE OF A THOUSAND DAYS, A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS and RYAN'S DAUGHTER all played at the Wilshire and ALL of the PLANET OF THE APES films, CHARLIE BUBBLES with Liza Minnelli, ALL of the THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT films were at the Beverly Theater...so Susan's film was just a part of putting more 'big movies' into the Beverly Hills area.

I have mentioned before, that I think Susan out acted Bette Davis, hands-down when they were put together in this film. The only problem I have with the film, is hearing and watching JOEY HEATHERTON whining in that 'awful' voice and 'trying' to play a teenage girl (which I'm sure she wasn't at the time, or else she was way ahead of 'her teen looking' age for the role.

I still am amazed..after all that dear..Miss JANE GREER has had to say 'against' working with Susan, in previous years. Jane plays the head correctional officer for teens, along with Anne Seymour and Ann Doran (who played James Dean's mother in REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE) as her aides. Susan and Jane have some nice scenes together, so it amazes me that Jane still had (and always had) bad things to say about working with Susan.

Of course this movie was a 'hot topic' at the time, because it is based on HAROLD ROBBINS book, which is based on the LANA TURNER and daughter killing of their 'lover'...gangster JOHNNY STAMPANTO. Many still say that it was Lana that did the murder..and daughter, Cheryl...took the 'fall' for it.

I am reading a book now on the life of PAUL LYNDE, who was an ugly drunk and didn't care what he said. (I know this because I was once about to be signed for a tv sitcom opposite him, as his younger brother, but the network had to cancel, because of his drinking problem.) There were many 'trys' to put Lynde into a sitcom, but all failed, mainly because of this reason. BUT in the book it tells of how LANA had visited CHITA RIVERA's dressing room, while she was appearing in Las Vegas...to fine PAUL LYNDE there too..and he shouted in his drunken stupor..."YOU DID KILL HIM..DIDN'T YOU? YOU GOT AWAY WITH MURDER!" So it is still not for sure...'who' actually did the murder and that will never be known now.

THE MOVIE...being from the novel by HAROLD ROBBINS also had another 'link' with me, later on...in the late 80's when I used to do a singing engagement with Harold Robbins wife..(then..and had been for many years)..GRACE ROBBINS. We performed at VARETTIA'S ON SUNSET..owned by VARFETTA THOMPSON, who had written a book (her only claim to fame) about the long love affair she had with HUMPHREY BOGART while he was married to LAUREN BACALL. Bacall hated Varettta for writing this 'trype' and I don't blame her. Varetta was a boozer and GRACE ROBBINS was a coke addict, when I worked with her. I remember her hiding from some well known friends, one afternoon, hours before showtime. She was visited by JULIE LONDON, CYD CHARISSE and GLORIA DE HAVEN. But she was too high on 'coke' to see them, so she hid until they finally left.

GRACE ROBBINS used to be a 'big name' in all of the Hollywood papers, two eras before. She was always being talked about by the big Hollywood reporters and known for being very pretty and quite big in the fashion world. But by the time I worked with her, she still looked good, but Harold was off in London and had been for almost a year, writing a new book and they were on the edge of divorce by that time.

I knew Grace's birthday was coming up and decided to surprise her, that night, by singing the title song..'WHERE LOVE HAS GONE' (sung by JACK JONES in the film). It was also a little of "SUSAN'..since she was the lead in the film, so I did surprise Grace with the song. I don't think she was too happy about it and after the show we were sitting with some other people and she told me that the song was 'a nice gesture' on my part..but it was a terrible song! THEN it hit me...she was on the brink of a divorce and I was singing..'where love has gone'..since Harold had been 'GONE' for almost a year..and SHE was always with other men. All in all..it was another ERROL'S 'MY FOOLISH MOUTH' things! ooops!

A FEW YEARS...after I had moved from Hollywood and in Utah, I read that Grace was DATING...that young odd guy who lived at O.J. SIMPSON'S at the time of the murders. (I can't think of his name right now..but you all know WHO I am referring to. His name is something like KALO. He was BIG NEWS and here GRACE ROBBINS was 'making headlines' with this young guy...NOT KIDDING! GRACE COULD HAVE BEEN HIS GRANDMOTHER..with that age difference.

ANYWAY...a few things about THE MOVIE and things it brought back into my mind, while watching it last night. Funny...you never know who you may wind up meeting and them being a part of your life..in this 'not so big' world, after all......


Hi Errol,

Sorry I missed your Birthday but I just got back from my trip to San Francisco and Mississippi. So, Many Happy Returns and hope you had a wonderful day. I had the greatest time on my travels and will write about it later. (I actually watched Where Love Has Gone in San Francisco. Susan
was just stunning in that one and I love it.)



Thanks for the birthday wishes Trish...and I hope you had a wonderful time while here in the USA...I think that would be wonderful to watch 'WHERE LOVE HAS GONE" while in San Francisco. You can almost 'smell' the ocean from the golden gate bridge..as you watch the opening credits in that film! Stunning photography!

Yes...Susan looked 'fantastic' in this film (as always)..and I love watching it, knowing how difficult it must have been for 'both female stars'...to work together and not allow any of their 'real feelings' for one another, to come through. But maybe not too bad for Susan, since she 'disliked Mother Bette Davis' in her role as 'her daughter'.

I know that Bette pulled her wig off and threw it into Susan's face...and in angeer saying.."THANKS..FOR NOTHING!"...feeling that Susan gave her 'nothing' to work off of throughout the film...But I don't see that! BETTE was NOT the leading lady of the film...SUSAN was..and SUSAN did not write the script, although it has been said that Bette 'tried' to have her part 'built up larger' and did NOT get her way in having this done.

If she had wanted to 'throw her wig' at someone...maybe it should have been at the DIRECTOR of SCREENPLAY WRITERS...NO...it was because SUSAN was the STAR and BETTE was the CO-STAR..'MOTHER OF SUSAN'...and proved she was 'NO BARGAIN BASEMENT...BETTE DAVIS'...as had been said by one critic, decades before!

SUSAN showed she was 'NO ONE'S BARGAIN BASEMENT'...ACTRESS. Period!...



I have mentioned before, that I think Susan out acted Bette Davis, hands-down when they were put together in this film. The only problem I have with the film, is hearing and watching JOEY HEATHERTON whining in that 'awful' voice and 'trying' to play a teenage girl (which I'm sure she wasn't at the time, or else she was way ahead of 'her teen looking' age for the role.

YES! YES! YES!! How could a producer/director/casting director who selected Susan to play the lead, allow Joey Heatherton to play her daughter?!? As I listened to "teen Joey" mewl and whine her way through the film, I could only chuckle at how Susan might have handled a brat like this in "real life!"

To those who may not know this info, Joey Heatherton was the daughter of actor/singer Ray Heatherton who after a career on radio and the Broadway stage became host of one of the most popular regional children's show in the 50's: The Merry Mailman. I remember the show so well and can still sing the lyrics of its theme song. (But rather than subject you to THAT, you can check out Ray Heatherton on Wikepedia and other sites which play the theme!)

Errol, I so TOTALLY agree that Susan waaay 'out acts' Bette and any other member of that oh-so-typical Harold Robbin's 'soap script,' and her performance actually "classes it up" enough that the film is definitely worth a 'look-see!' Susan's natural, real performance stands out so far and above her co-stars, and I hope she was proud of 'giving her all' in spite of the material and the people she was forced to deal with. (I also hope that she, at least, enjoyed San Francisco, one of my favorites cities - and, no doubt, FILLED with FANS who truly adored her!)

By the way, Errol, I LOVE all of your tidbits on show biz. While, as a NY actor, Broadway and its environs have been more "my beat," I get SUCH a kick out of all that you share of Hollywood and talent of the west coast! Please keep sharing these behind-the-scene glimpses. If I can think of any amusing east coast stories, I will be sure to reciprocate!

P.S. My ONLY bragging rights here are that Susan was a native Nu Yawker! ("Take THAT, Hollywood!")


Yo!,from New York, Errol!

Alice's most recent post reminded me that I keep meaning to tell you that I, too, am "all ears", when you share your very entertaining "Extras From Errol", re. your own stories and those of the 'Hollywood Pack', who never fail to amaze me. We just don't get to hear those kind of high-jinx tidbits flowing from the theaters on Broadway!

Mind you, I'm certain they exist--but the 'perpetrators' of most of these antics seem to keep them more buttoned-up!! "Tis a pity!"

Anyway, I never miss a post sharing your amusing memories!

Thanks! Lynn


Sorry...and I don't mean to be 'rude' but I think the biggest thing JOEY HEATHERTON will be remembered for is her tv ads for "sleeping on s See-lee mattress. *might be the wrong spelling..but 'those' who remember the tv ads will know 'which' mattress I am talking about. Joey scantly clothed lying sideways, with 'pursing lips' as she purred about the product.

I'm not sure if she ever made another film after...MY BLOOD RUNS COLD opposite TROY DONAHUE...(who I got to know quite well while working my first job in Hollywood at the Pantages Theater as concession mgr for ABC vending.)

Troy came to the theater about every other day while that film played and would come and talk to me about how the ticket business was doing. He was very worried about this being 'the end' of his career..(which it was). He had been Warner Bros heartthrob since A SUMMER PLACE...and now WB studios had put him in a b/w picture..with little plot and bad actress opposite him. B/w pictures were not being made by that time..and he was sweating his career going down the drain. I felt sorry for him, because he knew they had slapped him into a picture that was 'no good' and of course, did not make any money on its 'big run' at the famous Pantatges.

Over those weeks of getting to know him...he even hinted at losing his home and even asked me...if I was looking for a place to 'rent'. I almost took him up on moving into his place, but I was 'green' to Hollywood and had no car or a way to get into Hollywood to my job. Besides..that..I think Troy was looking for more than just 'a roommate'.

After MY BLOOD RUNS COLD closed, we opened THE GREAT RACE and I talked with him at the premiere...but didn't see him after that until one day, walking by the Egyptian Theater he stepped out of his car and said HI to me. He was there to pick up his 'new roommate' who was an usher at the theater. He said to me..."You know, Errol..this could have been 'you' that I was stopping to pick up, had you taken me up on the offer."

I did feel sorry for him..when I found out that his career went to teaching acting lessons to old ladies on a cruise line. He met a asian opera singer and they married, but like his marriage, years before to SUZANNE PLESHETTE..it failed. He wound up homeless, at one point, sleeping in N.Y.'s Central Park and was finally rescued by SANDRA DEE when a search to find where he had disappeared to. They were trying to set up a 'reunion' of the stars from A SUMMER PLACE in New York. Then...later he died..alone and 'unknown'.

At one time...I tried to reach him through Warner Bros. studios and was transferred three times..then told that 'no one knew him'. This was in the '90's. He had been totally 'forgotten' after being one of their big hearttrobs in the '60's. So many 'once stars' have turned out the same way!

I KNOW this kind of chatting has nothing to do with Susan...and not sure I should be relating these stories on here..but you have encouraged me to 'tell tales from Hollywood' and no one seems to be 'chatting' any more..so I will post things I remember...unless Ginger would rather these things not be posted.
Please let me know..Ginger. Sometimes when talking about a Susan film, it brings back other memories of when I lived in Hollywood...so I have just included them into posts.

ALSO...not sure I feel very comfortable doing this..if it seems like I am dishing on certain people I knew...so maybe I should just 'not' do it!

I AM A SUSAN HAYWARD FAN..FOR LIFE..and would much rather talk about Susan!!

Not even sure I should post this one..but I will and then let Ginger decide if these type of posts should be on this 'chat place'. I don't have that much to tell...anyway....


By the way....the guy GRACE ROBBINS was 'dating' that was involved in the O.J. SIMPSON murders was...KATO KALAN...I finally remembered his..name!!...



I have always wondered what happened to poor Troy Donohue, after his very brief career. I had a feeling it wasn't good and felt badly for him. So thank you for sharing your knowledge of him. My interest in people comes, I believe, from studying Psychology at college and reading so much about it. I just think so much about people and how they go through life. And I'm always hoping their lives have happy endings. I have always fought bouts of clinical depression......and I realize that we all have our dark days....and sometimes it is good to 'talk' with others.

And, of course, I love the funny tales you have to tell--they always make me smile!

You know, Errol, I would like to write so much more about Susan---but so few members are here now and seem to have done much of their talking years ago before I knew about the Board. I only just 'discovered' Susan and am full of thoughts and questions. How I wish I was here years ago. I love reading the Archives.

But, rather than losing the few connectiions we have left here on the Board at the moment, I appreciate so much how you try to keep us together.

I think that I am going to be more open and discuss the questions I still have about Susan and her life. I don't want to lose her now!!!

But, as we are such a small group now, I really appreciate your career stories very, very much!! And I do know that your 'first love' is Susan!

I rather believe that Ginger will understand that, during this quiet period on the Board, we still would like to try to stay together!! And I'm certain that Susan would sure miss us!

Thanks, Errol, Lynn


Lynn and Errol,
It seems as if whenever I post on the board,I'm somewhat of a wet blanket so
I apologize if it appears I am being one now. Though I could watch Susan in anything-even a Depends commercial-I continue to wonder why she made the role
choices she did in the 60's.I would have HATED to see her retire after winning her Oscar,but I feel her legacy today would have been better if she
had. I understand that when she was under studio contract,she really couldn't
pick and choose her films,but in the 60's she was free to. Why then did she
do films that were not worthy of her talents-especially "WHERE LOVE HAS GONE". We always loved Susan,but that film was trash! Tim has said in the
past that his mother was not good at picking men in her personal life. I
wonder who was advizing her professionally? I my opinion,they did that
great actress no favors than!!


Hello everyone,

I am going to throw a spanner in the works here regarding WHERE LOVE HAS GONE as I just adore Susan in it. It IS somewhat of a trashy film BUT she is so gorgeous in it and has so many great scenes that I love it. As we have all said before, Joey Heatherton had such a dreadful tone to her voice and even Bette Davis drove me to distraction with her clipped speech (and I do normally love her) but Susan, to me anyway, was just her wonderful self and the close-ups for her age at the time, were unbelievably good. I never get tired of watching the great Susan in this one.



Elaine...I totally agree with you on this issue, because 'the choices' were not as good as when she was under contract. BUT..also when she was 'not under contract' you have to remember that was when she also did some of her best roles, (before the 60's)...NEITHER I'LL CRY TOMORROW or I WANT TO LIVE! was when she was under contract to 20th Century Fox. 'TOMORROW'..was MGM and I WANT TO LIVE! was UNITED ARTISTS/FIGRIO.

Ito would have to come from someone who knows more than just what has been reported..on 'why' she chose the roles she did in the '60's..but 'what has been reported' (in more than one place)...is that it had a lot to do with her husband, Eaton Chalkley. HE seemed to only wanting her to do films that took 'THEM' on locations...like Ireland for I THANK A FOOL...England for STOLEN HOURS,

Only BACK STREET and THE MARRIAGE-GO-ROUND, WHERE LOVE HAS GONE seem to have been made at the studios here...and it was reported that Susan did 'not' go to Hong Kong while doing SOLDIER OF FORTUNE and her scenes were done at the studio with 'backgrounds' that were shot in Hong Kong and brought back here.

Of course she 'replaced' JUDY GARLAND in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS...and that would have been filmed at the studio..(back at Fox)..but if 'any' Susan film should be called..'trash'...I would think it would be this one. WHERE LOVE HAS GONE is not a 'favorite' of mine, but I would not call it 'trash'. It had two great movie actresses opposite one another...and was based on LANA TURNER's 'trash life'..(and if you don't think that is correct...just read the book..'LANA" which I am now reading..with..OMG..EXPRESSIONS...after each page I have read!
Yes..it was a 'take-off' on Lana's/Cheryl's murder set-up from Harold Robbins book, but it is also based on the 'facts' in Lana's life! THIS FILM was from PARAMOUNT. Someone was going to be playing this 'hot topic' role and I think Susan did it justice!

It is very true..that the films 'after' winning the Oscar went 'down hill' but maybe it was NOT SUSAN'S CHOOSING...rather...someone 'taking control of her life' in more ways than..one! Personally, I happen to not have a lot of 'love' for Mr. Chalkley...and feel we would have seen much better films, if it were not for him. But this was HER LIFE and her love..so this is only for a fan to say!

I am happy we have all the 'great' films that she made...before the '60's..but there were still some good films then too. LOVE.."BACK STREET" no matter what anyone says..that is a darn good film..period...


THANKS TRISH...I totally agree..and if it was 'trashy'..it was based on 'real life trashy things'...so I would hope that people would look at this film to be...what it was 'suppose' to be. I do not dislike LANA TURNER, when I say this, but...read..'ANY'..book about her and you will see how 'trashy' things really were...not even with this 'murder thing'.

Sooo surprised...4 abortions (so far in this book)..2 still born children. First abortion was with MICKEY ROONEY..(also JUDY GARLAND...abortion with him) during the ANDY HARDY films...

Going off topic, in a way here..so will STOP! But Susan was truly beautiful in this film and her performance out-shown everyone else in the film.

If you want to talk 'trash movies' go to the 'new ones' that they put out now!!!

I don't even think that when this film was made, that it would have been considered that..'trashy'. BASED ON 'REAL PEOPLE'...gotta remember..where it all started....(then..we get..the real..'trash'...


I think you are correct-namely,that Eaton Chalkley had great influence,
if not total control,on Susan's choices. Guess love is blind!! I have to
pick your brain,though,you didn't think much of Chalkley....was that during
his marriage to Susan or with the passage of time? We know Tim doesn't
seem to have been fond of him-don't know what Greg's opinion was. As for
"BACK STREET", did you know that originally there was talk of filming it
in Cincinnati which was the setting of the Fannie Hurst book,and of having
Rock Hudson play the John Gavin role. I was growing up in Cincinnati-in
high school than-and the buzz was in the papers at the time. I
always thought that Gavin was a wooden actor. I would have loved to see
Hudson in the role. Of course,Cincinnati hardly possessed the glamour of
New York,Paris,Rome,etc.Needless to say,I was beyond thrilled at the time
at the prospect of Susan filming in my hometown. Would have skipped many
classes to watch that filming....but it was not to be.

By the way,that book you're reading sounds fascinating (trashy).What's
the title and is it new or old?



Forgive me for correcting you, but Judy never had any romantic inclinations toward Rooney, nor he for her. She had the abortion while married to her first husband, David Rose, and was forced to by the studio and her mother. I've become something of a minor authority on Judy by virtue of reading anything and everythng about her I could get my hands on.

Glad to be back on the board and have enjoyed reading all your comments. Now that I have a wonderful new MacBook Pro laptop I can be more active. Before on my old computer it was quite a chore to do anything without incurring all kinds of problems.

Also, for a full rundown on the Lana/Cheryl affair, Cheryl's book on the subject is a must-read for its truthfulness and poignancy. And I've drawn a blank on the title.



Jill I may be wrong because I think she has written more than one book - I recall reading a Cheryl bio somewhere in the late 80's / early 90's titled 'Detour : A Hollywood Story'.

I think? she actually states that it was she who murdered Stompanato and definitely not her mother ( but again, that is what is written. We are not privy to the definite truth I guess.) From recollection, she claimed he had been appallingly abusing her sexually for some time and that scenario, combined with the threat to Lana that particular night, led to the stabbing.

But in any case I am hoping that may be the book title to which you refer?



Elaine...now this is only 'my opinion' on Eaton..from what i have read and seeing him with Susan. He, Tim and Greg were all at the premiere of I'LL CRY TOMORROW at the Pantages Theater in Hollywood, so he was 'in her life' more than I had even realized. Then..if you see the 'full clip' that Tim put on YouTube, when she won the Oscar for I WANT TO LIVE! (IN THE FULL CLIP) it shows he kisses Susan, before she goes running down the aisle to the stage, so he was in her life from 1955 for the Premiere event..and then in 1958 for the Oscar.

Some reporters had said that Susan was finally 'happy' because she had finally found "a man who is in charge..and that is what I have always been looking for." BUT...he was also an alcoholic...which is..what she 'didn't need!' to help her with her own demons. It reminds me of RICHARD CONTE and how he treated SUSAN (as Lillian Roth) in I'LL CRY TOMORROW. NO ONE KNOWS how they fought their 'booze demons' together...and being one, myself, those demons are hard to destroy and get rid of..so you really need A MAN who can steer you 'away' from the things that destroy you..just as Lillian Roth needed..and so many of us do. It is SO EASY..to be lured right back into the 'dark place' that you are trying to pull yourself our of..and every alcoholic knows...what I speak of here.

ALL IN ALL...AS A FAN WHO CARED SO VERY MUCH FOR SUSAN'S WELFARE...I thought it was a 'bad mistake'. Yet...there are reports that she found' some happiness' with him. To me...he will always be a RICHARD CONTE type shown in that film..Not really 'helping'..rather 'pulling her into 'the dark place' even more. BUT...Susan had to have loved him, because she refused to stay in VENICE (another 'on location filming') to finish THE HONEY POT and said even if she was to be taken out of the film..she was going home to be with her very ill husband...who needed her. Of course, he took ill while in Venice with her and then later died..after going back home.


The LANA TURNER book was written in 1995....
They are all through ST. MARTINS PRESS in NEW YORK


Hi Jill...glad you are back on the 'board'....and happy that you chat with me 'on the side' at my email address, which everyone can do.

Jill..I am only going on what is reported in this book I am reading, who says that Judy was heartbroken when Mickey took up with Lana and did not want to tell Mickey that she was pregnant.

From this book...it says that Judy never told Mickey that she had the abortion. Then a quote from Mickey Rooney...saying he never knew about it until after it was all over with..and had he known, he would have NOT wanted to have had the abortion. It was not the same with Lana..when he found out that she was pregnant.

Sooo...maybe this writer is not telling the 'whole truth' but that is in the book.

She also goes on to tell how Cheryl finally had to tell Lana that husband LEX BARKER was forcing her to have sex with him all the time they were married and that is what ended their marriage. Cheryl didn't even 'dare' tell her mother, to she told her grandmother, Mildred, who in turn told Lana.

They were BOTH cheating on one another..Lana was never without men on the side and this was LEX's second marriage..the first ending because of being caught by his wife, (finally) with another woman and then knew that all the other 'affairs' were real too.

I have only reported what I am now reading in this book, so HOW would I know? I wasn't even....THERE....(lol)...


Kerry...the book DETOUR you are referring to, is also mentioned in this book, but I am just at that point now, so not sure what it says in this book. However it does say that 'neither' of Lana and Cheryl's testimony were 'the same' and there was big reason to KNOW that one of them was truly lying about the murder.

CHERYL..says when the door opened to the bedroom she had the knife in her hand and he ran into the knife..and it was just an accident. Another version (Lana's I think it was...because mother MILDRED had a version too and she wasn't even there)...but this 'other version' was that he was on He and Lana fought on the bed and that Lana had the knife..thus killing him!

I...feel..that it is another Hollywood murder that will never be completely revealed. Just like MARILYN MONROE, O.J. SIMPSON, (well I don't doubt much on this one..I think HE DID THEM), JEFFREY HUNTER, NICK ADAMS, BOBBY DARIN and the ROBERT BLAKE case. .....


First off -- hi Kerry. It's been a while. Nice to chat with you again.

Yes, the book title was "Detour..." I thought of it naturally after I posted my message. And I think it was the only one she wrote.

According to her book, there were never any abuse issues with Stompanato -- she was just defending her mother. I believe her account. The abuse came from Lex Barker when she was little. She mentions an ugly incident that occurred, which made me sick when I read it. What a creep.

I truly believe Cheryl's account of that night -- maybe because I had to defend my own mother more times than I care to remember. But I guess we bring our own experience to things we read and our feelings are colored by this personal history. I could identify with Cheryl and that is why I believe her. Plus, I don't think she had anything to gain by lying.

Anyway, never thought this subject would create so much interest on the board.