A Place where devotees gather to share inspiration.
"Holy Mother" painted by Swami Tadatmananda
Used courtesy of the Vedanta Society of Southern California
Such beautiful and profound thoughts as we end 2004 and begin 2005.
Shiv and Jayanti both have answered the question in your post.
I do not have the exact words so it would be best to go back to the source. I think by modesty has never meant any form of repression. Mother has ALWAYS embodied strength and free spirit. Jayanti has further illustrated this with various examples. Each one of them personify the Mother’s inner nature.
Shiv talks about concepts getting lost in translation which is so true. It is also wise to understand the words of great souls. We often modify what they say to suit our own needs. The words of the Mother and the Master should always be read in context of the situation.
Regarding the lack of inner security that Jayanti mentions, it is the root of all our troubles. This inner security comes when we realize our true identity and are not lost in the pettiness of our personal egos. When “we learn to make the whole world your own” then we will truly understand the Mother.
Paritosh,
If I were only aware of where this "ego" enters, I would solve the problem. You are very good at getting to the bottom of things.
Location: New Bern, NC
concerning: Sister Jayanti's message relating to The Seclusion of women in south asian culture
RE: "This was not a Hindu practice, actually, but was adopted by Hindu women as a protection from the Islamic conquerors. As often happens with a social practice, it can continue long after its initial usefulness. Or, perhaps it continued because India was still under foreign rule."
To further explain this time-honoured tradition, I would like to
quote the Begum Inayat Khan
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
Tom,
I just remembered something. My sister and brother-in-law lived in Saudi Arabia for a few years. When they returned I borrowed her purdah as a costume for a party, (Probably irreverent, and I apologize to whomever may be offended by my insensitivity at the time), however it was a lesson to me. I felt totally invisible and soul less. Why I do not know. It was as if no one even saw me. It was not a world that I wanted and I was sorry I wore the costume. I cannot tell you how invisible and indistinguishable I felt.
By the by, just my opinion, but I think that Stephen Stills wrote the "Love the One your With" as an excuse after Judy Collins dumped him (Suite: Judy Blue Eyes). Just a surmise. Thanks for your beautiful quotes. They are lovely.
Location: New Bern, NC
Hi Rosemary,
RE: Stepehn Stills
Yes, many songwriters create lyrics from personal experience.
For instance, Hank Williams wrote 'Cold, Cold Heart' after a 'tiff' with
his wife, Audrey.
RE: "It was not a world that I wanted and I was sorry I wore the costume. I cannot tell you how invisible and indistinguishable I felt"
You are an American girl...born and bred. It would never be possible
for you to be comfortable in purdah, unless you have committed
yourself, body and soul, to that particular way of life. Believe it or not, like anything else, the lifestyle does have it's compensations.
The 'Burka' is the great equalizer. All women are equally attractive under this contraption.
I always get a chuckle, when I think of the fact, that nobody has ever seen a bald Sikh...other than his immediate family! Many of us bare-headed folks are subject to hair loss...but the Sikh is never bald.
The Burka is something like that.
I'm sure that it wasn't easy for Ora Ray Baker of Albaquerque, N.M.,
to put away her own culture and adopt a life of seclusion in a
Sufi environment.
Then again, her eldest daughter, Noor, became a highly decorated heroine of World War II....which is pretty far away from 'purdah'.
I was totally amazed, when I found out, that Noor's mother and father
had met in the Ramakrishna Mission in San Francisco; and that her father gave Ora Ray the name of Sarada,
in honour of the Holy Mother.
California has always played a big part in the Ramakrishna Vedanta Movement...
..something like Madras, on the other side of the globe.
Have a great New Year 2005!
tom,
this is a very interesting thread to me. you have a much deeper understanding of this issue than I, and my views are prejudiced and subjective and maybe a taint feminist, (though I do not view myself that way)
your impressions are helpful and hopefully i do not offend anyone by expounding here. that said, may i just say...
(and perhaps i do not know the correct terminology, obviously there is a difference in purdah and burka)...it is my lame opinion that women covering themselves so completely is a way of making men feel less anxious about the fidelity of their women (WOA!!!).
However, the motivation that caused Mother to cover herself, is a whole different realm, and is most interesting and helpful. However, after Master's death, she did not seem as concerned. Please take this thread as a deep motivation to understand Mother's life and teaching and to compare it to my own views. Mother revealed herself to me in a dream before I even knew of her, so I know that she is the guide of my life. I mean no irreverence.
Rosemary
Location: New Bern, NC
Hi Rosemary,
From my understanding, 'purdah' means seclusion...it also means 'the veil'
which covers the lower portion of the face; whereas, 'Burka' is the
heavy garment which covers the whole body, leaving a small screen
at the face, for viewing and air circulation.
As you wrote, the anxiety over the 'fidelity of women' is also a factor,
in the seclusion of women. The 'Zenana' custom is practiced by both
Hindus and Muslims in India. This is an area of the house,
where the women of the family congregate; and is off-limits to men.
One may be invited to dinner and never meet the womenfolk in the
family. Of course, among many high caste Hindus, non-Hindus would
not even be welcome at the dinner table, since this would cause
pollution and require subsequent ritual purification.
Even president George W. Bush would be considered 'Mleech' in many an orthodox Brahmin dwelling....
and few of these would break bread with him.
As a matter of fact, MOST Hindu temples in India are off-limits to
foreigners [non-Hindus]..including Dakshineswar, the erstwhile
abode of our beloved Master.
Such is life in the ancient east.
Of course, all these things have absolutely nothing to do, with
the Sublime Knowledge, imparted to us, by Sri Ramakrishna,
Sri Sarada Devi and Swami Vivekananda...Words, which transcend
national, religious, cultural and linguistic barriers....
Here is an interesting fact, that few people are aware of:
Did you know, that Margaret Woodrow Wilson
[the daughter of US President Woodrow Wilson] was one of the
editors in 1942, of the translation of the Gospel of Ramakrishna...
along with Joseph Campbell?
Best,
Tom
====
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
Hello again Rosemary,
Of course, I agree with you, that this is a fascinating
subject, for those who wish to grasp a firmer understanding of the East.
The present 'War on Terror' is really a war between two civilizations. It is on a grand scale, reminiscent of the Battle of Kurukshetra, in the Mahabarata.
'Purdah' has a lot to do with it.
The modern civilizations have vigourously marched forwatd in the past century in many factors of everyday life, including of course the welcome emancipation and enfranchisement of the living manifestations of the Divine Mother.
Unfortunately, the ancient lands have not moved
so swiftly.
When the suffragettes demanded voting rights
in America, there was staunch opposition amongst the deeply-entrenched dominant male establishment.
The same holds true in the ancient cultures of the east.
The male-dominated clergy and other centres of power are 'just as' staunch, if nor more so, than the opponents of US womwn's voting rights in the early part of the 20th century.
Let us hope and pray for peace in the world.
Ordinary people are always the victims of war.
These ancient cultures are obliged to go through the same changing process, which occured in western society. We cannot 'impose' our views on them. It must come from within....otherwise we are looking at everlasting terror; and 'wars and rumours of wars';
which would also be in tune with the teachings of Matthew 24:1-33
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
hey Tom,
Your point is exactly why I feel such a fear of insensitivity towards this subject. I feel we do not understand Purdah deeply enough and that i may offend. As Mother practiced it at least for awhile,
I feel there must be some value to the practice. This is why the term "modesty" as used by Mother and Master is one that I wish to understand deeply.
I found another reference where Sri Ramakrishna
advised Mother not to imitate his niece Lakshmi, as she had developed some masculine characteristics. He said "Do not lose your womanly modesty." , which makes me think that perhaps his meaning has something to do with a certain masculine boldness.
I have no desire to practice purdah, however I believe that in her relationship with her husband, Mother had every reason to.
Location: New Bern, NC
According to my Collin's English Dictionary:
Modesty: The quality of being modest.; a sense of propriety; delicacy; chastity
According to my Bhargava's Hindi/Sanskrit Dictionary,
these are the words which relate to the English word, 'modesty':
namratA: Modesty, Courtesy, Meekness
Vinaya: entreaty, decency, courtesy, modesty, humilty
SusheelatA: Cordiality
sankUch: hesitancy
sAdagee: Simplicity
I sure hope that this helps.
Best wishes,
Tom
===
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
RE: ""Do not lose your womanly modesty."
Although I am unfamiliar with this quote from the Master,
please allow me to speculate on the meaning behind it.
The Master was no doubt aware that some men had dominant feminine
characteristics and some females, strong male characteristics...
. We are made up of these two
'strains', since 'God', is Shiva and Shakti, United in Blissful Embrace.
And, the Kingdom of Heaven Dwells Within Us.....
Therefore, He was probably advising Lakshmi Devi, to maintain
her female dignity and decorum, in the face of the challenges
that lay before her.
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
Namaste, Tom,
Thanks for the definitions. I especially liked the one "hesitancy" which I never attributed to modesty, but can see how it fits.
The reference by Master:
P62 "Holy Mother"
"Lakshmi was initiated by Sri Ramakrishna. She later developed something of a masculine nature, with which the Master did not interfere. Sarada Devi once remarked: "Lakshmi used to sing and dance before the Master, imitating professional musicians. He said to me: 'That is her nature, but you must not imitate her and lose your womanly modesty.'"
Thanks for helping me with this thread. It is obviously important to me.
Location: New Bern, NC
Namaste Rosemary,
Am happy to note, that you are making progress in your
research on the word, 'modesty' and how it relates to the Holy Mother. Of course, 'hesitancy' is a very apropriate word, signifying a demure attitude.
Incidentally, you aill notice in the listings of definitions of the
word, 'modesty', the Hindi/Sanskrit versions do not include 'chastity', like
the English version does.
======================================================================
According to my Collin's English Dictionary:
Modesty: The quality of being modest.; a sense of propriety; delicacy; chastity
According to my Bhargava's Hindi/Sanskrit Dictionary,
these are the words which relate to the English word, 'modesty':
namratA: Modesty, Courtesy, Meekness
Vinaya: entreaty, decency, courtesy, modesty, humility
SusheelatA: Cordiality
sankUch: hesitancy
sAdagee: Simplicity
=======================================================================
I believe that this is because, Sanskrit possesses a very special
word for 'Chastity', which is 'Sateetva', coming from the root word,
'Sati', the wife of Lord Shiva.
I found an interesting article on Sri Sati Devi at the following URL:
http://www.indiayogi.com/content/indgods/sati.asp
PS: Incidentally, if you are interested in the Sanskritic roots of
words, in our Indo-European family of languages, check out our
Sanskrit Etymoloigical Sources Website @ URL:
www.sanskrit.ipfox.com
May all the devotees of the Holy Mother enjoy the blessings
of peace and happiness as we celebrate the 151st
Birthday of Sri Sarada Devi.
Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/
I hope I can find this passage and quote again so that I may get the full context. I think I remember correctly that she was speaking in some response to a question about outer adornments. I would love to know the exact translation.
Location: New Bern, NC
It shouldn't be difficult to find a Bengali
Scholar, who is able to track down the
text in the original vernacular.
However, I feel pretty certain, that Sri Sarada's attitudes about the seclusion and/or adornment of women, were probably consistent with that of any high caste, albeit poor, village woman on the sub-continent of India. She probably would not have worn gold ornaments. I believe that her bangles were of wood...
which could have been in deference to the Master's oft-expressed alergy to 'woman and gold'
Thanks to Shiv, Jayanti, Paritosh and to Tom for the very pertinent replies to my inquiry. I feel my question to be more than answered and I will be pondering these points. I especially think that the "inner security" as mentioned by Jayanti hits the very bottom of the well. It is when fear comes that my security leaves me and it is only when I am calm that I remember Mother. I will try to keep the sweet and beautiful face of Swamiji in my mind as it seems to calm me.
Namaste and Happy New Year to all!
Location: New Bern, NC