Hi Rosemary,

From my understanding, 'purdah' means seclusion...it also means 'the veil'
which covers the lower portion of the face; whereas, 'Burka' is the
heavy garment which covers the whole body, leaving a small screen
at the face, for viewing and air circulation.

As you wrote, the anxiety over the 'fidelity of women' is also a factor,
in the seclusion of women. The 'Zenana' custom is practiced by both
Hindus and Muslims in India. This is an area of the house,
where the women of the family congregate; and is off-limits to men.

One may be invited to dinner and never meet the womenfolk in the
family. Of course, among many high caste Hindus, non-Hindus would
not even be welcome at the dinner table, since this would cause
pollution and require subsequent ritual purification.

Even president George W. Bush would be considered 'Mleech' in many an orthodox Brahmin dwelling....
and few of these would break bread with him.

As a matter of fact, MOST Hindu temples in India are off-limits to
foreigners [non-Hindus]..including Dakshineswar, the erstwhile
abode of our beloved Master.

Such is life in the ancient east.

Of course, all these things have absolutely nothing to do, with
the Sublime Knowledge, imparted to us, by Sri Ramakrishna,
Sri Sarada Devi and Swami Vivekananda...Words, which transcend
national, religious, cultural and linguistic barriers....

Here is an interesting fact, that few people are aware of:

Did you know, that Margaret Woodrow Wilson
[the daughter of US President Woodrow Wilson] was one of the
editors in 1942, of the translation of the Gospel of Ramakrishna...
along with Joseph Campbell?

Best,

Tom
====

Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/

Hello again Rosemary,

Of course, I agree with you, that this is a fascinating
subject, for those who wish to grasp a firmer understanding of the East.

The present 'War on Terror' is really a war between two civilizations. It is on a grand scale, reminiscent of the Battle of Kurukshetra, in the Mahabarata.

'Purdah' has a lot to do with it.

The modern civilizations have vigourously marched forwatd in the past century in many factors of everyday life, including of course the welcome emancipation and enfranchisement of the living manifestations of the Divine Mother.

Unfortunately, the ancient lands have not moved
so swiftly.

When the suffragettes demanded voting rights
in America, there was staunch opposition amongst the deeply-entrenched dominant male establishment.

The same holds true in the ancient cultures of the east.
The male-dominated clergy and other centres of power are 'just as' staunch, if nor more so, than the opponents of US womwn's voting rights in the early part of the 20th century.

Let us hope and pray for peace in the world.
Ordinary people are always the victims of war.

These ancient cultures are obliged to go through the same changing process, which occured in western society. We cannot 'impose' our views on them. It must come from within....otherwise we are looking at everlasting terror; and 'wars and rumours of wars';
which would also be in tune with the teachings of Matthew 24:1-33

Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/

hey Tom,
Your point is exactly why I feel such a fear of insensitivity towards this subject. I feel we do not understand Purdah deeply enough and that i may offend. As Mother practiced it at least for awhile,
I feel there must be some value to the practice. This is why the term "modesty" as used by Mother and Master is one that I wish to understand deeply.
I found another reference where Sri Ramakrishna
advised Mother not to imitate his niece Lakshmi, as she had developed some masculine characteristics. He said "Do not lose your womanly modesty." , which makes me think that perhaps his meaning has something to do with a certain masculine boldness.
I have no desire to practice purdah, however I believe that in her relationship with her husband, Mother had every reason to.

Location: New Bern, NC

According to my Collin's English Dictionary:

Modesty: The quality of being modest.; a sense of propriety; delicacy; chastity

According to my Bhargava's Hindi/Sanskrit Dictionary,
these are the words which relate to the English word, 'modesty':

namratA: Modesty, Courtesy, Meekness
Vinaya: entreaty, decency, courtesy, modesty, humilty
SusheelatA: Cordiality
sankUch: hesitancy
sAdagee: Simplicity

I sure hope that this helps.

Best wishes,

Tom
===

Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/

RE: ""Do not lose your womanly modesty."

Although I am unfamiliar with this quote from the Master,
please allow me to speculate on the meaning behind it.

The Master was no doubt aware that some men had dominant feminine
characteristics and some females, strong male characteristics...
. We are made up of these two
'strains', since 'God', is Shiva and Shakti, United in Blissful Embrace.
And, the Kingdom of Heaven Dwells Within Us.....

Therefore, He was probably advising Lakshmi Devi, to maintain
her female dignity and decorum, in the face of the challenges
that lay before her.

Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/

Namaste, Tom,
Thanks for the definitions. I especially liked the one "hesitancy" which I never attributed to modesty, but can see how it fits.
The reference by Master:
P62 "Holy Mother"

"Lakshmi was initiated by Sri Ramakrishna. She later developed something of a masculine nature, with which the Master did not interfere. Sarada Devi once remarked: "Lakshmi used to sing and dance before the Master, imitating professional musicians. He said to me: 'That is her nature, but you must not imitate her and lose your womanly modesty.'"
Thanks for helping me with this thread. It is obviously important to me.

Location: New Bern, NC

Namaste Rosemary,

Am happy to note, that you are making progress in your
research on the word, 'modesty' and how it relates to the Holy Mother. Of course, 'hesitancy' is a very apropriate word, signifying a demure attitude.

Incidentally, you aill notice in the listings of definitions of the
word, 'modesty', the Hindi/Sanskrit versions do not include 'chastity', like
the English version does.

======================================================================
According to my Collin's English Dictionary:

Modesty: The quality of being modest.; a sense of propriety; delicacy; chastity

According to my Bhargava's Hindi/Sanskrit Dictionary,
these are the words which relate to the English word, 'modesty':

namratA: Modesty, Courtesy, Meekness
Vinaya: entreaty, decency, courtesy, modesty, humility
SusheelatA: Cordiality
sankUch: hesitancy
sAdagee: Simplicity
=======================================================================

I believe that this is because, Sanskrit possesses a very special
word for 'Chastity', which is 'Sateetva', coming from the root word,
'Sati', the wife of Lord Shiva.

I found an interesting article on Sri Sati Devi at the following URL:

http://www.indiayogi.com/content/indgods/sati.asp

PS: Incidentally, if you are interested in the Sanskritic roots of
words, in our Indo-European family of languages, check out our
Sanskrit Etymoloigical Sources Website @ URL:
www.sanskrit.ipfox.com

May all the devotees of the Holy Mother enjoy the blessings
of peace and happiness as we celebrate the 151st
Birthday of Sri Sarada Devi.

Location: http://www.angelfire.com/ma/saradamani/

I hope I can find this passage and quote again so that I may get the full context. I think I remember correctly that she was speaking in some response to a question about outer adornments. I would love to know the exact translation.

Location: New Bern, NC

It shouldn't be difficult to find a Bengali
Scholar, who is able to track down the
text in the original vernacular.

However, I feel pretty certain, that Sri Sarada's attitudes about the seclusion and/or adornment of women, were probably consistent with that of any high caste, albeit poor, village woman on the sub-continent of India. She probably would not have worn gold ornaments. I believe that her bangles were of wood...
which could have been in deference to the Master's oft-expressed alergy to 'woman and gold'

Thanks to Shiv, Jayanti, Paritosh and to Tom for the very pertinent replies to my inquiry. I feel my question to be more than answered and I will be pondering these points. I especially think that the "inner security" as mentioned by Jayanti hits the very bottom of the well. It is when fear comes that my security leaves me and it is only when I am calm that I remember Mother. I will try to keep the sweet and beautiful face of Swamiji in my mind as it seems to calm me.

Namaste and Happy New Year to all!

Location: New Bern, NC