I have a favourite quote regarding pre-destination. The quote is by Sri Ramana Maharshi, the greatest Jnani of the 20th century. The quote goes as follows:

"The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdhakarma (destiny to be worked out in this life, resulting from the balance sheet of actions in past lives). Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it.This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent."

Further,

"All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence. It does not rest with you to accept or reject them. The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounce activities there."

Location: Guwahati, Assam, India

Dear Ankur Ji,

Thanks for sharing those wise quotes from Sri Ramana Maharshi.

The inexorable Law of Karma cannot be escaped, that is very true.

One must seek refuge from the world, at the feet of the Divine Mother, Mahashakti.

Sri Ramakrishna said:

"Not a leaf moves except by the will of God.
Where is man's free will?
All are under the will of God. Therefore I say:
'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator;
I am the chariot and Thou art the Driver.
I move as Thou movest me; I do as Thou makest me do'."

-again-

"Is it possible to understand
God's action and His motive?
He creates, He preserves, and He destroys.
Can we ever understand why He destroys?
I say to the Divine Mother: 'O Mother,
I do not need to understand.
Please give me love for Thy Lotus Feet'.
The aim of human life is to attain bhakti.
As for other things, the Mother knows best."

As far as Sri Ramana Maharshi, being the greatest Jnani of the 20th century, I am obliged to take exception to that statement, for the following reason:

Since Swami Vivekananda achieved Mahasamadhi on July 4, 1902, this brings him into the Twentieth Century.

Swamiji was both a 'Jnani' and a 'Bhakta'; and he should certainly be placed at the pinnacle of Realized Souls.

Have you started your re-reading of the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna as yet?

If you are fortunate enough to achieve the necessary solitude and peaceful surroundings, you will doubtlessly gain much benefit from this valuable exercise.

With every reading, new insights will be forthcoming, and many details, hitherto overlooked, will spring to life.

I cannot stress enough, the feelings of joy that will enter your heart, through the careful and concentrated study of the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.

Om Shanthi Om
===============

Respected Nahabat Web Admin,

Thank you for your kind message, which I have just re-read to my profit.

I was out-of-station for long in search of a good job, I have also kept unwell for some time, and above all I was not in the right frame of mind to write. Hence this delay in replying to your post.

I still beg to differ on who is the greatest jnani of the 20th century. But as Thomas a' Kempis says in Imitation of Christ, it is both futile and harmful for us to argue on this point. You continue to consider Swami Ji (Vivekananda) as the greatest Jnani, I will continue to consider my first Guru Ramana Maharshi as the greatest. By the way, I came upon a wonderful quote by the Maharshi yesterday, which struck me powerfully: "God cannot be seen with our eyes or known by our sense perceptions. This is what is meant by saying: TO SEE GOD IS TO BE GOD." (p.196, Arunachala's Ramana. Vol. II). Wonderful, isn't it.

As for taking refuge in Mahasakti, whom I adore as Holy Mother Sarada, I give a quote below from the book,'A Disciple's Journal - In the Company of Swami Ashokananda' by Sister Gargi (Marie Lousie Burke). The quote is from Chapter 8, p.145 of the book.

January 6, 1957

Swami(Ashokananda): When Holy Mother blessed a person, no obstacle in the whole universe could obstruct his progress. She herself said so.
Me (Marie Lousie Burke): My! How lucky the people were who knew her.
Swami (Ashokananda): Yes, but that power still exists. That love is always there. Only now one has to know how to find it. Holy Mother came to prove that there was such a protective power that one could call on.

As for reading the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, I have kept the advice sincerely in mind, but have not yet acted upon it. God willing, I shall soon do so.

Thanking you once again.

With regards,

Ankur

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Dear Ankur Ji,

Thanks for sharing those wise quotes from Sri Ramana Maharshi.

The inexorable Law of Karma cannot be escaped, that is very true.

One must seek refuge from the world, at the feet of the Divine Mother, Mahashakti.

Sri Ramakrishna said:

"Not a leaf moves except by the will of God.
Where is man's free will?
All are under the will of God. Therefore I say:
'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator;
I am the chariot and Thou art the Driver.
I move as Thou movest me; I do as Thou makest me do'."

-again-

"Is it possible to understand
God's action and His motive?
He creates, He preserves, and He destroys.
Can we ever understand why He destroys?
I say to the Divine Mother: 'O Mother,
I do not need to understand.
Please give me love for Thy Lotus Feet'.
The aim of human life is to attain bhakti.
As for other things, the Mother knows best."

As far as Sri Ramana Maharshi, being the greatest Jnani of the 20th century, I am obliged to take exception to that statement, for the following reason:

Since Swami Vivekananda achieved Mahasamadhi on July 4, 1902, this brings him into the Twentieth Century.

Swamiji was both a 'Jnani' and a 'Bhakta'; and he should certainly be placed at the pinnacle of Realized Souls.

Have you started your re-reading of the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna as yet?

If you are fortunate enough to achieve the necessary solitude and peaceful surroundings, you will doubtlessly gain much benefit from this valuable exercise.

With every reading, new insights will be forthcoming, and many details, hitherto overlooked, will spring to life.

I cannot stress enough, the feelings of joy that will enter your heart, through the careful and concentrated study of the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.

Om Shanthi Om
===============

Location: Guwahati, Assam, India

Dear Ankur Ji,

Firstly, allow me to wish you a complete and full recovery from your recent illness, and also every success in your search for suitable employment.

I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion about the futility of arguing on the point of 'who is the greatest Jnani of the 20th century'.

For us to embark upon such a fruitless discussion, would be reminiscent of children in the school yard, each claiming his own father to be the best in the world.

Of course, we must also take into consideration, the fact that we are posting messages in the Holy Mother's Courtyard, where the memory of Swami Vivekananda is held in very high esteem indeed....and rightly so!

Then again, one would be obliged to present a proper definition of the word 'Great'.

The definitions which most apply (in this particular sense) are:

1. important
2. weighty
3. momentous
4. of exceptional ability
5. highly gifted
6. possessing genius

One would naturally assume, that the spiritual son of Sri Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsadeva, who founded the prestigious Order of Ramakrishna; traveled to America, and spoke so eloquently at the Parliament of Religions in Chicago; would be the prime candidate for the title of 'the Greatest Jnani of the 20th Century'.

However, notwithstanding the foregoing, I certainly would not wish to deflate your high opinion of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi.

I also appreciated the Sri Ramana Maharshi quote you so kindly offered; namely, "God cannot be seen with our eyes or known by our sense perceptions. This is what is meant by saying: TO SEE GOD IS TO BE GOD."

Sri Ramakrishna also said the following:

"God doesn't appear easily in the heart of a man who feels himself to be his own master. But God can be seen the moment His grace descends. He is the Sun of knowledge.
One single ray of His has illumined the world with the
light of knowledge. That is how we are able to see one
another and acquire varied knowledge.
One can see God only if He turns His light toward His own face."

Om Shanthi Om

===============

Thank you, respected Web Admin, for your post and the good wishes regarding my health and job prospects.
Some quotes:
You know, my friend, God is not hidden. With just a little beckoning of your finger He comes out. Why not, since He is the reality of everything?
We have somehow cultivated a state of inattention. Every single one of us is having the experience of God always.
Questions such as "Where is God? Who is He? What is He? are foolish. In that very moment, whatever you see is God. He is HERE. Rub your eyes. Clear your brain.
Unfocus your worldly vision. Rub your eyes. See that God is all there is. Spirituality is learning to focus so that you see only God.
There is not a thing that you look at that does not shine with the glory of God.
Never search for things that will remain outside of you. Things cannot become a part of your inmost being. They are not worth having.
If you want the knowledge of the Spirit, it will come to you. Take it. It is always there.
Such is the nature of knowledge that it comes without being guided by anything.
When your whole soul is filled with the reality of God, there is nothing left in your consciousness with which to perceive the world of matter.
He is within you. He is outside you. He surrounds you. You are within His arms. Can you get away from God?
Perfectly pure, one-pointed devotion to God completely disarms Him and He reveals Himself at once. God is a sucker for devotion.
He is the pure, all-pervasive consciousness gleaming through the living, shrouded in the nonliving, and shines bright in the serene life of the knower of Truth.
See the one Being that saturates the universe.

These quotes are by Swami Ashokananda, disciple of Swami Vivekananda. They have been selected by his disciple Marie Louise Burke and her friend Shelly Brown. pp. 127-129. Shafts of Light.

Thanks and regards,

Ankur

Location: Guwahati, Assam, India

Excellent quotes, Ankur Ji,

Here is also a good one from the Master:

"It is God alone who has become all this. But in certain places -
for instance, in a holy man - there is a greater manifestation than in others. You may say, there are wicked men also. That is true, even as there are tigers and lions; but one need not hug the 'tiger God'. One should keep away from him and salute him
from a distance. Take water, for instance. Some water may be drunk, some may be used for worship, some for bathing, and some for washing dishes."

Om Tat Sat

You are right, Respected Web admin. In this regard, I quote Swami Yatiswarananda Ji (former Vice-President of the Ramakrishna Order) from this August's Prabuddha Bharata:

Never dwell on old impressions, on old associations, on worldly company and thoughts, not even subconsciously or semi-consciously. This is one of the greatest dangers for the spiritual aspirant who really wants to go through the necessary cleaning process. There must be a definite cut, and then: thinking along new lines; new good associations; new, good, pure thoughts and ideas.

Be as wide awake as possible so as not to take in bad impressions either through the eye, or through the ear; and if you do take them in, root them out immediately. Use the utmost discrimination as to the company you allow yourself to be in and the things you allow yourself to hear.

You [the aspirants who are seriously committed to the spiritual path] must not allow yourselves to have direct relations with others. Your country and all others may be loved through God and in God, never in any other manner; otherwise you will entangle yourselves in the meshes of God's maya.

Regards,

Ankur

Location: Guwahati, Assam, India

Thank you, Ankur ji, for those interesting quotes from Swami Yatiswarananda Ji. The rules for spiritual aspirants are indeed strict, and necessarily so!

Sri Ramakrishna said this:

"How is it ever possible for one man to liberate another from the bondage of the world? God alone,
the Creator of this world-bewitching mAyA,
can save men from mAyA.

"There is no other refuge but that great teacher,
SatchidAnanda [existance-knowledge-bliss].

"How is it ever possible for men who have not
realized God or received His command,
and who are not strengthened with divine strength,
to save others from the prison-house of the world?"

Om Tat Sat

Thank you both for this interesting discussion with many wonderful quotes.

I do wish to draw out one important difference between the concept of destiny as understood from an Eastern, Vedanta, perspective, it is generally viewed in the West. Specifically, karma is not fatalistic. This is true in an ordinary sense, as when Holy Mother tells us that through our sincere devotion we my receive a pinprick instead of the broken arm we had coming. However, escaping negative outcomes is not the goal of spiritual life, nor is this conveying the tremendous beauty of karma.

Many years ago I wrote an article entitled, "Karma: Riding the Wheel of Opportunity." It is not that "the rules for a spiritual are strict," but rather that the potential for a spiritual aspirant is great! And like all realized potential, spiritual potential is realized through commitment to training. That is, the "strictness" is not a negative, but rather a positive. The more committed we are to any goal, the more readily we embrace the requirements for achievement.

But back to karma as opportunity. The law of karma declares that we are creators. How we act within our present set of circumstances sets in motion our future circumstances. "Making karma" means creating and as long as we act with even the tiniest attachment, we continue making karma.

Now the ultimate goal of spiritual life is complete detachment from this world and the realization of oneness with God. This is a distant goal, however. Most of us are still in training. Life is our spiritual gymnasium. The circumstances we encounter serve as our training equipment. By our past actions we have created the very lessons we need to continue onward towards God. How we experience and what we learn is up to us because we have the power as spiritual beings to change and shape our experience by our attitude! In fact, this is exactly what we are supposed to do!

Therefore, we have only one destiny according to Vedanta. Ultimately we WILL realize God. All else is far from "determined."

What is proof? We have all seen individuals in the same circumstance. One laments, another is content, and a third rejoices. What makes the difference? Difference in attitude! As spiritual aspirants we learn to use our creative power effectively by choosing our attitudes!

Thank you,
Sister Jayanti. Thank you for your wonderful post. Especially, 'Tremendous beauty of karma,''spiritual potential is realized through commitment to training. That is, the "strictness" is not a negative, but rather a positive. The more committed we are to any goal, the more readily we embrace the requirements for achievement.''What makes the difference? Difference in attitude! As spiritual aspirants we learn to use our creative power effectively by choosing our attitudes!' were helpful. Yes, one learns this, some easily, some the long hard way. I am learning it the hard way. I spent over a dozen years fighting with and lamenting and bewailing my prarabdha. Even to acknowledge it as MY prarabdha took all these years. So the understanding implicit in seeing the tremendous beauty of karma has taken me long. Mother's love. I was thinking today that when a patient is in hospital, the doctor disregards, even brings on his present suffering sometimes to cure him and prevent more suffering, if possible put an end to suffering for ever. Then we don't accuse the doctor of being cruel! So I was thinking. I have often addressed God as cruel in bouts of terrible pain and helplessness. But Mother is like that doctor. She has our good only in mind. How strong Her heart is to bear the sufferings of Her son (s) for his/her better future. I have just rambled on.
I would like to end this post with a long quote from 'Glimpses of a Great Soul - A Portrait of Swami Saradananda' by Swami Aseshananda. Swami Saradananda Ji says: "I am sorry to learn that you are suffering from a lot of troubles. Everything happens by the will of the Lord. Happiness and unhappiness, both come to us through divine will for our education. One thing we have to learn is that we are to cling to Him for support and remain unperturbed in the midst of all circumstances. If we view life from another angle, we will notice that it is unhappiness that teaches us more than happiness; it is misery that cleanses our hearts more than enjoyment. In the days of adversity the mind is naturally inclined towards God more than in the days of prosperity. You must have read in the Mahabharata that Kunti, the mother of the Pandavas, said to Krishna, 'Oh Lord, let there be misery, trouble, and misfortune for me always, for I can remember you with constancy of heart when I am in trouble. Weak as I am, I am prone to forget you when I am basking in the sunshine of comfort and pleasure.' Sri Ramakrishna used to sing a song describing the anguish of the heart of a devotee when he forgets God. This is one of the beautiful songs of Ramprasad which Sri Ramakrishna liked very much:

Mother, this is the grief that sorely grieves my heart,
That even with Thee for Mother, and though I am wide awake
There should be robbery in my house.
Many and many a time I vow to call on Thee
Yet when the time for prayer comes round,
I have forgotten....
Glory and shame, bitter and sweet, are Thine alone;
This world is nothing but Thy play.
Then why, O Blissful One, dost Thou cause a rift in it?

Whenever you feel miserable and spiritual life seems dry, you must drive these feelings away by thinking that you are His servant, His child, part of Himself and that your Chosen Ideal is always there holding you by His hand. You are safe in His care, and nothing but good will come to you in the end. Remembering this, you must pick up strength and banish from your heart all depressing thoughts. Despondency is the greatest obstacle in spiritual life. It saps energy and destroys your ability to struggle. Repeat your mantra several thousand times a day. That will give you strength. If evil thoughts appear, be indifferent to them. They come due to the impressions of previous lives and it is good that they rise to the conscious plane; it will be easier for you to control them. If your mind is unsteady and you cannot fix it on the Lord, pray to Him with a yearning heart, 'O Lord, I have no one in the world. Thou alone art my own. Please make my mind steady for I cannot do it myself. Helpless as I am, I take shelter at Thy feet."
Remember, the Lord listens to every word that you utter, every thought that you think. Whatever you ask of Him with sincerity will be fulfilled. If you can surrender yourself to Him, you will be at peace. Let Him do what He thinks best. True resignation comes only after hard struggle. Only when the wings are tired, does a bird sit on the mast of a ship to rest. Have faith in Him who never forgets His devotees, even though they forget Him. Listen to what Sri Krishna says in the Gita: "The Lord lives in the heart of every creature. He turns them round and round upon the wheel of His Maya. Take refuge utterly in Him. By His grace you will find supreme peace, the state which is beyond all change."

Thank you.

With regards,

Ankur

Location: Guwahati, Assam, India

Dear Sister Jayanti,

Thanks for sharing your insights, which are always much appreciated.

You wrote: "The law of karma declares that we are creators"

As long as we feel that we are the 'doer', then that is necessarily so.

However, if through the Grace of the Divine Mother, our True Nature is revealed to us, then the Law of Karma has been effectively conquered.

Sri Ramakrishna said:

"Not a leaf moves except by the will of God.
Where is man's free will?
All are under the will of God. Therefore I say:
'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator;
I am the chariot and Thou art the Driver.
I move as Thou movest me; I do as Thou makest me do'."

-again-

"Man's ego itself is MAYA. It is the veil that shuts the light.

"Verily, with the death of "I" all trouble ceases. If by the grace of the Lord a man once gains the knowledge that he is not the doer, then he assuredly becomes freed in this very life and transcends all fear."

So, in the final analysis, it is, as you claim, a question of 'attitude'; however, the 'attitude', which governs the situation, is that of 'the Creator' dwelling within, rather than of 'the individual vehicle' .

The Master said this:

"God doesn't appear easily in the heart of a man who feels himself to be his own master. But God can be seen the moment His grace descends. He is the Sun of Knowledge.

"One single ray of His has illumined the world with the light of knowledge. That is how we are able to see one another and acquire varied knowledge.

"One can see God only if He turns His light toward His own face."

Om Shanthi Om

PS: I also enjoyed reading Ankur ji's message from his heart.

===============================================================

Dear Brother Nahabat,

From the absolute Truth, all is incorrect for there is neither experience or attitude in the absolute.

Neither is there experience or attitude in the "creator dwelling within". Karma belongs to the individual exclusively. We can only speak of karma in terms of relativity, and karma arises only as a result of our feeling of separation. We learn to go beyond separation slowly. Our individual will is all-important, whether as a bhakta we use it to place our dependence on God, or as a jnani we strive to realize oneness with the absolute. In either -- all -- cases it is OUR attitude that either carries us forward or drags us down. The spiritual aspirant strives to use his or her will in ways that facilitate going forward. Attitude is a key component of this.

Ankur has given wonderful insights and quotes. In truth, until we see our life as a learning opportunity for spiritual development... Well, to quote the Master himself, "So long as I live, so long do I learn."

Thakur, in keeping with Vedanta, does not decry the ego. The devotee, he says, keeps a bit of his or her ego so they might behold and worship the Lord! However, the ego of the devotee, he says, is the ripe ego that has been turned toward God. Most of us are under the influence of the ordinary, unripe ego, which is pulled toward worldly attachments. What makes the shift possible? Our individual will, motivated first by a shift in attitude. :)

Beautifully said, Sister Jayanti, beautifully said.

Although, it is undoubtedly true that 'most of us are under the influence of the ordinary, unripe ego, which is pulled toward worldly attachments', we can always aspire to the ideal, which the Holy Trio have graciously set before us....as lofty as that may appear to be.

Swami Vivekananda said this about Karma: "When the Yogi has attained perfection, his actions, and the Karma produced by those actions, do not bind him, because he did not desire them. He just works on; he works to do good, and he does good, but does not care for the result, and it will not come to him. But, for ordinary men, who have not attained to the highest state, works are of three kinds, black (evil actions), white (good actions), and mixed."

Comment: I think that the key phrase here is: "does not care for the result".

Swamiji also said:

"Says our Vyasa, "In the Kali Yuga there is one Karma left. Sacrifices and tremendous Tapasyâs are of no avail now. Of Karma one remains, and that is the Karma of giving." And of these gifts, the gift of spirituality and spiritual knowledge is the highest; the next gift is the gift of secular knowledge; the next is the gift of life; and the fourth is the gift of food."

Additional Comment: Sister Jayanti, by establishing your excellent and long-standing Holy Mother's Cyber Tantu website, and this fine message board, you are offering the highest gift, the gift of spirituality and spiritual knowledge.

Om Shanthi Om
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